Topping E30 Volumio

Hi people, Id like to get streaming connected into my system [roksan K3 amp] to try to upgrade the sound quality from my current bluetooth usage. I have noticed a real upgrade in SQ when using my Samsung S8 over my nexus 7, probably due to different DAC and that the S8 uses Aptx. Unfortunately the connection isnt 100% reliable and I really need my phone at hand and not within a few metres from my amp before it starts to cut out. So I'm thinking streaming would be the way to go as Ive heard there is a definite step up in SQ over bluetooth. I would like not to spend too much, as would I really be getting a £500+ increase in SQ? So I've been doing some research and have heard of the Bluesound node 2i, but also about using a RAspberry Pi with a dac, such as Schiit or these Topping DACs. John Darko has mentioned both and the Topping looks like a good choice having seen some other good reviews. My issues are now, pretty much everything else. I dont totally understand how a streamer works. Can I play anything through a Raspberry Pi once set up, such as Spotify, BBC sounds, soundcloud, Radio Paradise? Its just that on some reviews it mentions spotify and deezer and tidal, but not BBC or other apps I use. If I was to go RPi what would be the best config for SQ? Which HAAT? Ive seen in one of his vids a set up with Rpi that uses 2 power connections, I think I'd like to keep it to one. Also, connections. I saw a vid of Darkos that I think said I could Toslink my TV into a DAC which would be great because at the moment my TV isnt connected to my amp. [On a side mention, any ideas if I can connect my TV straight into the line inputs on my amp?]

Are there any other suggestions or advice to help get me going? Thanks V much

Hi people, Id like to get streaming connected into my system [roksan K3 amp] to try to upgrade the sound quality from my current bluetooth usage. I have noticed a real upgrade in SQ when using my Samsung S8 over my nexus 7, probably due to different DAC and that the S8 uses Aptx. Unfortunately the connection isnt 100% reliable and I really need my phone at hand and not within a few metres from my amp before it starts to cut out. So I'm thinking streaming would be the way to go as Ive heard there is a definite step up in SQ over bluetooth. I would like not to spend too much, as would I really be getting a £500+ increase in SQ? So I've been doing some research and have heard of the Bluesound node 2i, but also about using a RAspberry Pi with a dac, such as Schiit or these Topping DACs. John Darko has mentioned both and the Topping looks like a good choice having seen some other good reviews. My issues are now, pretty much everything else. I dont totally understand how a streamer works. Can I play anything through a Raspberry Pi once set up, such as Spotify, BBC sounds, soundcloud, Radio Paradise? Its just that on some reviews it mentions spotify and deezer and tidal, but not BBC or other apps I use. If I was to go RPi what would be the best config for SQ? Which HAAT? Ive seen in one of his vids a set up with Rpi that uses 2 power connections, I think I'd like to keep it to one. Also, connections. I saw a vid of Darkos that I think said I could Toslink my TV into a DAC which would be great because at the moment my TV isnt connected to my amp. [On a side mention, any ideas if I can connect my TV straight into the line inputs on my amp?]

Are there any other suggestions or advice to help get me going? Thanks V much

Of course you can control Pi / Volumio with phone, tablet or PC but you can also, easily, wire physical controls to the Pi if you're that way inclined.

I reckon the Pi with the E30 could be a good choice for you. Not least because the E30 would allow you to use the Pi, as supplied, via USB.....or from coax or optical if you were to add a 'hat'. It would also take optical from your TV.....and all for a reasonable price. I started by using Pi [model 3B+] via USB, then added a HifiBerry Digi+Pro which gives a choice of digital outs. No need to buy the [more expensive] latest model Pi for audio purposes. As for what you can play, as with all streamers it depends on the operating system [OS] / app and who they have agreements with. You'd need to check what you use will support what you want.....whether or not it will always be supported....that's another question. Can only tell you what the [free] Volumio does: Your own stored music, from HDD, USB stick and the Pi's own SD card. CD quality Radio Paradise and other radio stations [once you find / enter their streaming URL]. Can also do [paid for] Spotify apparently.

Of course you can control Pi / Volumio with phone, tablet or PC but you can also, easily, wire physical controls to the Pi if you're that way inclined.

Thanks for your help, this is going to take a bit of time for me to investigate and make a decision!

Many thanks Gray, having seen others posts on this subject, I was hoping you would be able to chip in
I've been looking online today at some of the points you mention and doing a little more research, and my word, my head is beginning to hurt Theres so much to it all isnt there. The notion of having to check every app I want to listen to is a new one to me, as I hadnt really thought about it, I was sort of thinking I could just use any app and they would all stream over the the Pi once the phone was connected. So I need to do some more thorough research here, especially on the BBC sounds site, as I use this quite a lot. Apparently it might be available on tunein. Does the Pi support tunein? When you say radio paradise does CD quality, this i new to me too. I thought the max bitrate was 320kbps? How do you achieve CD quality here? I thought of maybe using a google chromecast audio feeding the Topping DAC, but these are now only available through previous owners at a considerable price hike. Are there any other non expensive streamers I could look at? Are there any Yamaha ones that would be suitable do you know?

Thanks for your help, this is going to take a bit of time for me to investigate and make a decision!

oo, also, do you know if the Pi can do Spotify gaplessly?

It comes with their proprietary control app. You'll see that it can do Tunein Radio - I note what you said about BBC Sounds - I use it myself, directly on a tablet and a laptop.....again, you would need to check precisely what any standalone device / control app can do.

It will stream Radio 2 or 4 perfectly for example, but not via the sounds app.

The choices go on and on.......

Any questions, none are stupid, someone here will advise you.

I reckon the Pi with the E30 could be a good choice for you. Not least because the E30 would allow you to use the Pi, as supplied, via USB.....or from coax or optical if you were to add a 'hat'. It would also take optical from your TV.....and all for a reasonable price. I started by using Pi [model 3B+] via USB, then added a HifiBerry Digi+Pro which gives a choice of digital outs.

No need to buy the [more expensive] latest model Pi for audio purposes.

As this is related, I've been looking into linux/raspberry pi streamers like this for a while. One of the Pi Streamers I had been looking into was Allo USB Bridge to bypass the USB 'dirty' power on my laptop. Is there any benefit to something like this over a standard Pi?

As this is related, I've been looking into linux/raspberry pi streamers like this for a while. One of the Pi Streamers I had been looking into was Allo USB Bridge to bypass the USB 'dirty' power on my laptop. Is there any benefit to something like this over a standard Pi?

I'd like to know how a battery could possibly have higher 'noise'.

You'd be your own best judge of that Jimmy.
I've seen USB [in general, but especially on the Pi] described variously as 'unusable' and 'perfectly OK' . I can confirm that USB from a Pi has certainly been useable for me. Though I currently take coax out [via a Hi-fiBerry Digi+ Pro 'hat'] which does sound better than USB using the same [Khadas Toneboard] DAC.......but that may not be due to inferior Pi USB [could just be that the DAC is better on coax than USB]. I read the words from Allo on that link. They make the claim that: 'The final noise of the USBridge is lower than the noise of a battery'.

I'd like to know how a battery could possibly have higher 'noise'.

RPi with Volumio will do a very decent job. Spotify is easy to add [for free]. It will play from an external source, such as a NAS device. You can use mConnect to integrate Qobuz or Tidal via upnp. I found that a cheap USB DAC improved the quality somewhat.

Id also add a vote for the Yamaha WXAD-10 as a one box streaming solution if you want something that really is plug and play.

RPi with Volumio will do a very decent job. Spotify is easy to add [for free]. It will play from an external source, such as a NAS device. You can use mConnect to integrate Qobuz or Tidal via upnp. I found that a cheap USB DAC improved the quality somewhat.

Id also add a vote for the Yamaha WXAD-10 as a one box streaming solution if you want something that really is plug and play.

Cheers for adding to the thread everyone, all very useful info. I was having a look at the Bleusound node 2i again on a youtube the other day, and learnt that it has bleutooth Aptx HD in and outputs. This would be great for me as I have just purchased B&W PX7 wireless headphones could utilise this, and I am concerened that my Samsung S8 phone's bluetooth isnt super reliable. So that then led me to think maybe you can buy individual Apt X HD transmitters [I know you can buy receivers], and yes, it turns out you can, for a reasonable price [~£40]. So I'm considering this option also for being added onto the RPi and DAC. I'm not sure yet if the DACs I am looking at will have enough outputs, but hopefully. I was also doing an audio test on youtube [I know, not best] of different DACS, and there really seemed to be an upgrade from the schiit modi 3 and Topping D30, to the Schiit multi bit. I will have to do further research though. And I suppose there is the Chord mojo. Originally way over my proposed budget, but if it means getting a great sound that wont need upgrading at any point....... On another note, I've just been connecting my phone today to the amp via headphone to RCA cable, to test the SQ difference from cable. To my surprise the volume through the line inputs [I tried both] is significantly lower than the volume using bluetooth. I tried using both my phone and my tablet, and volume a lot quiter. I have to go from volume at 9 oclock on bluethooth to 10 oclock to match it on the cable. With my 150W amp, this is a lot of volume being added. Any ideas why this is? Just wondering because this could be disappointing when it comes to plugging in a DAC and the volume is reduced so much. My amps sweet spot for SQ is anywhere below 11 oclock, and I'd really not want to be forced into pushing it above that zone.

Sound quality wise, it was hard to put a finger on anything between cable and bluetooth because of the volume [gain?] correction i had to do, but I prefer the sound through bluetooth! I was thinking this could due to the very basic cable I was using for headphone to RCA, but there seems more dynamism with the bluetooth.

....the volume through the line inputs [I tried both] is significantly lower than the volume using bluetooth....
....this could be disappointing when it comes to plugging in a DAC and the volume is reduced so much.

So if a CDP matches your Roksan's built-in BT volume level, the DAC will.

I'll probably make a post when I start building this setup.

Please do. It will be good to see what you do, maybe start a new thread. [You didn't hijack this one, the OP mentioned RPi as a streaming option]. Before I added the HifiBerry HAT board, I was just using the simplest plastic case. [Some people warn against metal cases possibly affecting wi-fi / Bluetooth]. This is my actual case, adapted so that power and GPIO wires exit from the rear [along with the USB plugs]. Blue LED in the case goes off when Volumio has shut down:

The [fixed level] output from any DAC will be a close match [if not identical] to that of any CDP you're using. [You can confirm that before purchase by comparing the output spec. of both].

So if a CDP matches your Roksan's built-in BT volume level, the DAC will.

I was looking at the Allo digi one signature Hat for the Pi. It costs £220 or abouts! I wasnt expecting that. If I was to get that and a DAC for around £200 I'm looking at around £500 for the full kit. This would be close enough to the price of the Cambridge CXN V2 at £800. Would you expect the Pi with allodigionesig with £200 DAC to sound better than the CXN?

I was looking at the Allo digi one signature Hat for the Pi.

[Think we can all agree it looks better than any Pi option though].

So was I for a while......but soon stopped

were you saying you were looking at getting the CXN or the allodigionesig?

At the risk of beginning a discussion between believers and non-believers on whether to pamper bits and bytes or not. Having heard a difference between different digital cables on an ok system myself and wishing the best structural set-up also for the future, I am confronted with a dilemma. I used to have my router very close to my audio system. The router was connected by a 1 meter Audioquest [Cinnamon I think] Ethernet cable to my streamer. I moved recently to a place where I will probably stay for many years. The router [download speed > 100 Mbps] is nowadays + 10 meters away from the streamer. To give an idea, my current partial set-up is a Bluesound Node 2 streamer used as a DAC for streaming [unfortunately through wi-fi atm], connected by a Transparant Musiclink Interconnect to a NAD C372 ampli. Van den Hul Hybrid speaker cables then lead to a pair of ProAc Studio 125. Happy with the components, but they might be upgraded over the following years. I do not want to go through wi-fi for streaming. I will pull an ethernet cable leaving from the router direction streamer through an existing PVC cable conduit [currently hosting an unused old TV cable] over the entire 11 meters. I don’t want to replace this cable too often for upgrading purposes. I guess I can choose between:

• Cheap ethernet cable CAT-6/7/8 over 11 meters connecting router and streamer. If that went without saying for me, I wouldn’t be writing this post.
• More expensive ethernet cable over 11 meters connecting router and streamer, e.g. AudioQuest Forest or Cinnamon [I leave out the hyper expensive stuff like the AQ Diamond or Nordost stuff, that’s way beyond my budget, especially for + 10 meters]. Maybe good to know: I’m not sure the RJ45 connectors can be pulled through the cable conduit [several 90° curbs], I may have to use a long ethernet cable fixing the RJ45 connectors afterwards myself.
• Cheap or half cheap ethernet cable over 11 meters connecting the router to a [cheap ? quality ?] switch, which will then be connected to my streaming device with the short Cinnamon ethernet cable I have already.

My modem/router from the ISP is in the hall, connected to the BT master socket. I run a short lost segments are always retransmitted. Ps: shielded cables are a must when in vicinity of microwave owens or any electromagnetic emitters like any kind of small electric motors.

Hope it helps.

CAT6A U/FTP should do as said by @drg_hifi. Most music streamers will use TCP so long as it's a buffered stream. Any live streamed radio/channels/live content will be UDP. Christmas Lights are another classic EM Emitter that people overlook.

What won’t? A switch or a better power supply? Which ones have you tried, or are you just assuming?

- If you have a EM enducing devices sharing a multi-adaptor or the same electrical circuit. If this was the case you would hear this on your analogue equipment/speakers/amps.

Network equipment has to meet a whole plethora of industry standard IEC and IEEEs to make it to the market.

Thanks for you detailed reply. Yes, I’m aware of that. Are you saying you’ve tried a switch in an audio system in a domestic setting and found it made no difference, or that you believe your technical understanding of streaming means it is pointless?
You’ll be aware there are several ‘Hifi’ switches currently on sale, and many users reports improved results. Is that simply placebo, or might something be happening that industry standards don’t recognise?

Bill

Thanks for you detailed reply. Yes, I’m aware of that. Are you saying you’ve tried a switch in an audio system in a domestic setting and found it made no difference, or that you believe your technical understanding of streaming means it is pointless?
You’ll be aware there are several ‘Hifi’ switches currently on sale, and many users reports improved results. Is that simply placebo, or might something be happening that industry standards don’t recognise?

Because i don't frankly own a spectrum analyzer costing £20k+ to tell you the difference i'll link you to Audio Science review who have done this comparison alreaady.

As for power, making changes to your power setup will result in an improvement only if you have an issue to start with.

From a switch standpoint it is frankly placebo. We transmit audio visual trafic over ethernet at work using a variety of manufacturer switches. All are built on the same standards as what you will find in your home. If such a thing existed frankly the datacentre and ISP markets would be a complete mess, and the internet would not be as reliable as it is today.

Because i don't frankly own a spectrum analyzer costing £20k+ to tell you the difference i'll link you to Audio Science review who have done this comparison alreaady.

Cable grades make an actual difference in protecting against packet loss from signal interference. You should not require more than CAT6A/ FTP unless you plan on cabling up to 100 Metres at 10Gb. Their is no normal requirment for that for 99.9% of homeowners. Anyone who tells you that having gold endplates or stupidly expensive cable is a con artist. If you get confused with DcA/CcA/BcA etc. grades of cabling, these are to do with levels of fire resistance etc. which different buildings have a different requirement for as outlined by British Standards and other health and safety/legal agencies.

As for power, making changes to your power setup will result in an improvement only if you have an issue to start with.

Anyone that tells you HI-Fi network cable and switches make a difference compared to a standard a correctly specified unit is nothing but a con artist, ask them to provide verifiable proof or even proof from an independent double blind test and they will go silent, or claim it is not relevant. [A sure sign that are trying to rip you off, just like most Hi fi cable manufactures do]

Bill

If very high priced 'audiophile grade' digital cables and switches were essential for sending digital music around the home, Qobuz and Tidal over the internet, would sound absolutely bloody aweful...

I’ve never seen an ‘independent double blind test’ for any Hifi gear, Bill. Have you?

Bill

There has been a few over the years, [A number in professional music/studio magazines as well] I have also attended many over the years, which when combined with my engineering background allows me to sort the wheat from the chaff. [Hi Fi Network cables and switches are most certainly chaff]

Bill

A fascinating thread. The only thing I’d add is that I found a managed [rather than unmanaged] switch did improve stability / reduce dropouts when streaming hires. A little bit more expensive but worth it.

A thing that is not well known is that expensive switches [managed/unmanaged] have a lot more backplane capacity than cheap ones. This is almost a rule. Example: cheap/regular switch with 8 x 1 Gig ports might have only 2 Gb backplane switching capacity, if you top all 8 ports with 1 Gb traffic you'll find you can't because maximum switching capacity is only 2 Gb. versus Expensive switch[usually for work/enterprise type] with 24 x 1 Gig "LAN" ports has 24 Gb[probably a bit more] switching capacity at any given moment. It might have other higher speed ports too but I wanted to highlight only the difference in capacity.

Of course you should not buy an enterprise switch only for this reason - its hard to top even a cheap ones backplane capacity only by listening to music which stops at max 3730 kbps/stream, considering modern broadbands that are much higher today.

A thing that is not well known is that expensive switches [managed/unmanaged] have a lot more backplane capacity than cheap ones. This is almost a rule. Example: cheap/regular switch with 8 x 1 Gig ports might have only 2 Gb backplane switching capacity, if you top all 8 ports with 1 Gb traffic you'll find you can't because maximum switching capacity is only 2 Gb. versus Expensive switch[usually for work/enterprise type] with 24 x 1 Gig "LAN" ports has 24 Gb[probably a bit more] switching capacity at any given moment. It might have other higher speed ports too but I wanted to highlight only the difference in capacity.

Of course you should not buy an enterprise switch only for this reason - its hard to top even a cheap ones backplane capacity only by listening to music which stops at max 3730 kbps/stream, considering modern broadbands that are much higher today.

Also for those who were interested on the Cable ratings comments I made in my previous post, see here for more of an idea on what this is about and how the grade of cable is determined.

A thing that is not well known is that expensive switches [managed/unmanaged] have a lot more backplane capacity than cheap ones.

Well I certainly didn’t as I’ve never seen the phrase ‘backplane capacity’ before. For someone like me, who uses an 8-port Netgear GS108 unmanaged switch simply to spur off and isolate my streamer from the ISP supplied modem-router, can I take it that this capacity is irrelevant?

You dont need to worry about your switch as it has a store and forward bandwidth capacity of 16Gb. Frankly i'd be amazed if you manage to break that at home. I have attached a link to the manual here.

You'll find the word 'Backplane' more in corporate environments as this relates normally to capacity in switches that can be stacked. Usually these use bespoke interfaces to talk to each other at high speeds.

You dont need to worry about your switch as it has a store and forward bandwidth capacity of 16Gb. Frankly i'd be amazed if you manage to break that at home. I have attached a link to the manual here.

Thanks, I’d read store and forward but didn’t understand that either! It’s just PnP for my modest use, but I appreciate the extra know how, thank you.

Anyway, lots of quality information in this thread even for the pickiest people. Hope it helped.